The world as we know it is going to change in our lifetime, and while we can see it coming, are we prepared for what it means for us and for our children?
Speaker
1: First topic then we can go help yourself to
whatever you want. Just yell if you want more to drink or something different,
I’ll do my best. So this is salad leaves and figs and soft cheese--it’s not
goat’s cheese—and pomegranate. It’s quite light because it’s baked chicken and
ratatouille for main, which will be nice but quite hot. And then Eton mess for
pudding, because it’s summer. Okay, who wants to pick the first one.
Speaker 2: The world as we know it is going to change in
our lifetime, and while we can see it coming, are we prepared for what it means
for us and for our children?
Speaker 3: All right. Does whoever’s question that is have
anything to say about it or should we just jump in?
Speaker 4: That’s my question and when I sent it, I’m not
sure what frame of mind I was in. But I was thinking about it this morning and
I guess, as my son asked me to remember, I need to start with the definition of
what I mean by change. And I think when I was asked that question, what I was
talking about was changing values, changing dynamics, and about people’s
willingness to embrace that change. So countries, when I was growing up, a
country ethnicity was quite, you know, was not a big issue.
You generally saw
people who are the same as you. Now every country you have people from
different countries who come to anywhere without meeting people who have just
been around any old city for maybe five years, 10 years, as against you who may
have been born and brought up over there. Because if the family is changing, it
no longer is the kind of joint family system that I grew up knowing. It’s
leading to a nuclear family and now the concept of what comprises a family is
changing and this is what our children are used to. And sometimes, when you
talk to them, it’s okay to accept but you need to understand where they’re
coming from in order to be able to accept and support, so that’s what I meant
when I proposed that question.
Speaker 3: So I guess it’s kind of about changes with
reference to globalization rather than—
Speaker 4: Well, I mean that’s what I mean when I say,
well, to define that, you know, if you’re going to talk about being
environmental impact, then that’s a different kind of change. So we’d first
have to probably agree what change we’re going to talk about. If you’re going
to talk about the petrol war, then that’s a different change because by the
time they grow up, it’s going to be a different fuel system and everything. So
what I proposed it, probably I was talking about more of the cultural thing,
but it’s an open question, you know. You can approach it from any angle.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 5: Within 20 minutes.
Speaker 2: With a nice bow around it.
Speaker 3: I di think it’s amazing what you can sort out..
Speaker 5: The world in 20 minutes, right.
Speaker 3: I think, I don’t know, like I think it’s one of
those things that you can only be prepared for that kind of cultural change by
almost growing up within it because I
notice really big generational differences between, for example, me and my
parents. And they live in a foreign country, they really travel loads. They
grew up in a relatively multi-cultural society themselves and—
Speaker 2: Where was that?
Speaker 3: And well, and—no, it’s all right. That was the
pomegranate. [laughter] Yeah, in Wolverhampton. My mum’s from the Midlands and
my dad’s from Manchester. So as very small children, they were relatively—well,
they weren’t multi-cultural, but then kind of from the time they were 10
onwards, so they’re post war. Things became really, really different. So I
guess I mean in terms of how they lived, they’re used to it. They’re used to
just meeting different people. But not nearly on the scale that we are because
we’re in London and it’s a big city and everybody’s from somewhere else.
So I guess we kind of
take that more in our stride and I think that generation that first dealt with
a big influx of people from other places, does that whole thing of like what
you’re allowed to ask and what are the hot topics and what is the common ground.
But then when that’s a bit more normal, you’re like well, the common ground is
the same thing with everybody else when we normally talk about your jobs and
your kids and the weather. The weather.
And then I see my
sister’s kids, they’ve grown up even more diverse society and they’re the
coolest kids ever because they know so much more stuff that I didn’t know
because they have friends from all around the world, so they eat paella and
they eat curries and they eat Mexican food. I didn’t even know what paella was
when I was 15. Does that make sense?
Man 2: They don’t have the sort of
cultural cringe. They are able to talk, to different ethnicities and go what
are you eating? Rather tan going “Ohh No” (awkward noise) I should know what
you’re eating and doing that awful
British awkward thing of “I’m unable to ask anyone from a different culture
what’s actually going on” without fear. I think that’s an important thing to
try and work against and that’s probably what’s enviable about a younger
generation, their isn’t that thing about fear. But it’s interesting watching
Nigel Farage being eviscerated on radio today (its always a joy) but
how…because if you’re setting policy, you have to set policy on the assumption
of change, not the abolition of change because it feels like then the argument
is how do we stop it. It’s not going to stop, that’s just not an option. The
option is how do you adapt well? Not how can you prevent?
Speaker 3: The definition of British has changed, it is
changing because I think that’s the thing with a lot of that UKIP narrative. I
mean, whatever it is that they thing British is, I don’t recognize that in my
lifetime and I’m pretty sure that people older than me don’t either.
Speaker 6: They made a terrible assumption of everybody
over 50 is basically just going, “Damn these brown people!” It’s not true. But
that’s what this sort of thing, Nigel Farage assumes older people are just like
that. I’m not sure that’s inherently true of being an older person.
Speaker 3: And actually that, like in terms of how
the cultural influx is. Like for example here, up the road in Stockwell, we’ve
got massive South American, Hispanic, Portuguese speaking communities. In
Brixton there’s a really, really big West Indian community. Then if you go down
to Tooting, there are Indian and Pakistani communities and then there’s
Chinatown. Like the different, really massive groups of people. They’re not all
that, like, that “we don’t like brown people” thing. They’re Europeans, they’re
Poles, they’re Romanians, they’re French, isn’t there a massive French
contingent in London?
Speaker 4: But I guess one of the interesting words, there
was something that I wanted to pick up in what you’ve said but also you used
the word fear and I think that’s interesting and that comes back to the heart
of my question because we’d like to believe that we’re living in a world where
there are no rules.
It’s like everybody’s
talking about freedom but think about all the rules that we give our younger
generation. Don’t talk about politics, don’t talk about religion, don’t ask
another question about this, don’t ask them, you know? We tell them everything
that they cannot do and that makes accepting change even more difficult because
we notice groups of communities as this that and the other, but they’re what?
They’re studying together, they’re growing up together, and they don’t really
recognize.
My son came here when
he was five. He doesn’t see himself as Indian. As far as he’s concerned, he’s
British. So when people talk about India in class and they look at him, he’s
just like, “Why are you looking at me? I really don’t know anything about
India”.
So it’s about that,
you know? It’s about people being hesitant to ask questions about how other
people live. They’re curious, but they don’t know what to ask because who knows
what’s going to offend whom?
Speaker 5: Also it makes them look ignorant as well and no
one likes to put themselves out there like I don’t know the answer because
we’re all told that you should know everything and you’re vulnerable if you
suggest that you might be able to learn something from someone, whatever age
you are. So then how much of it’s about backgrounds and race and how much is
about fear in terms of our own, I don’t know, insecurities, really?
Speaker 6: But
that’s a very interesting thing to try and teach, isn’t it? It’s the confidence
to be vulnerable and their courage to ask the dumb question.
Speaker 5: And to always learn. That’s the thing I loved about
reading your website was, you know, let’s be open, honest with each other, and
come to learn things and to challenge our views because that’s the only way we
learn really, and grow and mature, and to carry on figuring out things rather
than thinking we know everything. And we know that this is our island and this
is the way it has been and this is the way it should be.
Speaker 3: Which is a bit silly because an island that’s
like made up—I mean, we’re mongrels, like we’re made up of so many different
peoples—I’m sure that’s totally a wrong word to use—
Speaker 5: You can edit that on transcript.
Speaker 3: No, no. I’m not. Because I grew up partly in
another country but all my blood is British and I talk about myself as a
cultural mongrel. I’m all sorts of things, I don’t quite belong anywhere.
Speaker 5: You’ve got an identity crisis…
Speaker 3: I’ve got a bit of an identity crisis! I have!
And for me, the growing up is so much more important —where I grew up and what
that is because it’s so much important than whatever this blood is.
Speaker 6: Which country? Where was it?
Speaker 3: Crete in Greece, which is, there’s a lot of
similarities but a lot of massive differences that you really don’t expect. And
I think, because that’s one of the things that bothers me, I think maybe the
way we talk about cultural difference is really outdated because we live in
this world of identity politics and we talk about the black community or the
Pakistani community or the Muslim community or the women’s vote or…fuck off! I
don’t agree with most women I meet. So just kind of how… I think there’s still
this narrative of compartmentalization and that just isn’t how it works. And it
isn’t how its ever worked really.
Speaker 2: But the trouble is it is how it works in terms
of being incredibly effective in politics, in terms of getting votes. I mean,
the reason that it’s such a pervasive way of discussing is because, you know,
massive data and the way, particularly in American politics, the way that they
were able to disaggregate people to figure out if you get out that vote in that
district and not this district, the Democrats will win or the Republicans will
win. So I agree with you completely that it’s an incredibly unhelpful and
dominant narrative but the problem is it’s too difficult to dismiss as useless…
Speaker 5: But there’s no alternative of doing
that at the moment. But also human nature is that we want to feel part of the
tribe, whatever that is, whether that’s a subculture, whether that’s a
background or income issue, we still, as much as we like to say we treat
everyone the same, as soon as we meet people, we have a view of them and we try
and connect in set ways to make ourselves feel comfortable.
So I think that’s
human nature which is why it’s so scary when UKIP and people and any market in
general talks in certain ways, like, you know, you’ll be more liked if you look
as pretty as this woman and you’ll be viewed differently if you’re this way.
Everything is…
Speaker 3: But don’t you think that the simplicity of
that, of that reflex, that reductive, it’s a tool for control? Like I feel like
one of my things for doing this is like I feel like somewhere out there, there
are people that actively profit from making us all kind of fight.
Speaker 5: Absolutely! Yeah.
Speaker 3: And it’s not like I can identify, like I can
broadly identify them in a kind of imaginative, fussy way, but I can’t point to
one guy and say you own the plot, you know?
Speaker 4: I’ve been looking at the drop, the election
manifestos, which are being dropped in my post box as elections draw near, and
some of the stuff is just absolutely atrocious that I just think, you know, let
alone offending me because I don’t subscribe to some of the views of these
parties, but this is just downright unacceptable! How can you say things like
this? Some of the stuff that they write and it literally is designed to make
people look at each other with suspicion—
Speaker 2: Wedge politics.
Speaker 4: You know? Yeah, that’s politics. So I just
think that…I would like that most people question but there are a percentage of
people who don’t question who are easy to influence. You have a moral duty
towards your nation. You can’t go about saying stuff that’s going to just get
people angry and divisive and—
Speaker 3: Stuff that’s going to sow social division and
aggression and fear.
Speaker 4: Absolutely! We don’t really need any more of
that.
Speaker 5: I think it’s much more pronounced that outside
of London as well because it’s where you do have more kind of tight-knit
communities of people who are predominantly the minority, then it becomes a lot
more difficult to kind of make that less vitriolic and less kind of scare
mongering and less difficult to manage, I think.
And particularly, I’m
from the North East and for years and years and years and years there was one
girl in my school who was from Iran and she was a refugee from Iran and she was
like this amazingly glamorous person because no one had ever seen anybody like
her. Nobody kind of knew what to do with her and she was just like everyone
else and wore DMs and went to the pub. There wasn’t just enough of that
mixture.
Now there’s a lot of
Polish people and there’s a lot of anger about the people who used to work down
the mines, you know, don’t have jobs, and the Polish people had come and they
got all the jobs in the factories and it’s like, “okay, but you don’t want that
that job”.
Speaker 3: Exactly. And to be honest, if someone who
barely speaks English who doesn’t have any connections in this country can come
and steal your job, it’s because you’re shit at it.
Speaker 5: Or because you don’t want to do it.
Speaker 3: Or you don’t want to do it.
Speaker 4: Or you don’t want to live on less than minimum
wage. Beacause that’s what a lot of these jobs are.
Speaker 7: And there are nice benefits because a lot of
them have got nice sick pay from white finger treading down the line. Why give
up a cushy life to work in a chicken factory?
Speaker 2: So yeah, I want to just pivot because I can see
the clock. Let’s get back to the question because I agree with this completely,
this notion. Because what we’re talking about, I think, are a set of issues
that have been the most disgust for us in generation in terms of difference.
And I think ethnicity and race had been big issues in terms of our cohort
post-war, let’s say probably two generations. I don’t know how you define a generation.
But while it would
sound incredibly strange, I want to talk about the Eurovision winner and when
we talk about—because that’s about, like, that’s one of the last things that I
feel I don’t know how to ask questions about transgender issues. [LGBT] I get
now. I have gay friends, I have lesbian friends, but I don’t get it. And I
don’t get what I don’t get about it and I find it weird. I’ve just spent a few
months in San Francisco and I really—I lived with a drag queen and it was just
really interesting, like I was like I don’t know what I’m not supposed to say,
what words I’m not supposed to say, what—
Speaker 5: Are you a he, are you a she, are you…?
Speaker 2: Yeah! He or she. And we were totally gullible
as we were walking here because the Gogglebox program, I don’t know if you’ve
seen it, where they watch TV and you watch their reactions. It’s sort of kind
of cross-section of the world and their reactions to. But watching people
around the country react to this, I mean, I did the same.
Is that a man or a
woman? Is it offensive if I say he? I don’t know. Is it she? The reason I bring
it up is because I think that, for a generation coming up behind me is an issue
that they probably…I think they’ve probably scaled the walls of race and
ethnicity and I taught in Streatham for six months in a class that couldn’t
have represented more diversity in terms of the looks and the way that
everybody was, but that’s one of the things I wonder whether if I’m looking for
issues that haven’t yet been digested—
Speaker 7: Yeah, I don’t really
believe in marriage and same sex marriage and yeah, it’s really interesting.
But I think that’s what’s so exciting in way it’s that you are asking
questions. I’ve got some friends who are gay, lesbian, bi, and then trans, so
going through the change in different places. And I think the best thing to do
is just go, “Right, so what’s your name?” and then they tell you whatever name
they want and you talk normally and then if it comes up you go, “Oh, I don’t
really know what to say about that.”
I got asked to go to a
binding session with my friend Gregory, who is going from female to male, and I
textsed back going, ‘Book binding! I’ve always loved to do that again” And she
went, “No, it’s binding my breasts.” I was like, “Oh, okay!” I’m freaked out a
bit. And I think we were just so open with each other that she was just like,
“You don’t have to but I need someone to help me.”
Speaker 2: I don’t understand what that is.
Speaker 7: So you’re
flat-chested. It’s like a bandage around…
Speaker 2: But it’s like a permanent procedure?
Speaker 7: No, you just do it daily if you want to, you
know.
Speaker 2: I understand that. But why would that be a one
of session?
Speaker 7: It was a training for people who wanted to
learn how to do it daily and do it well, so you didn’t hurt yourself or do it
too tight or…and I thought it was book binding and I didn’t think. She knew.
You know, she was figuring out what she was doing and now she’s completely a
man but it was really…I think it was really good. We were both just very open
on how do we talk about this elephant in the room when we need to and how do we
not fixate on it when it’s more than who you are.
Speaker 4: That’s very trusting because we have this phrase
called coming out of the closet. And I just think that that’s something that
people do one fine day. But it’s not. They’ve got to go through their own
nightmares. It’s something that they are learning to do, somebody’s teaching
them how to live that way, so yeah. That’s really interesting.
Speaker 3: And every time you meet someone new, you’ve
kind to have to go through a version of that process again. And I think that’s
the thing, like, there’s this cultural setup where it’s like, “Hey everybody!”
and then everyone knows and that’s easy, but I don’t think it really works that
way.
Speaker 7: Why should you have to go through it every
time? Like I didn’t watch Eurovision but I saw the image of the person who won
and why, you know, it’s not their entire being, so it’s not like I’m straight away,
when you’re going to ask everyone where are you from, what’s your background,
it’s interesting you’ve got skin in this color or that you’ve decided to grow a
beard or have a shaved head. It’s not everything, is it? So I think that’s
what’s quite nice about kids as well, it’s because everything’s so new and they
just feel—
Speaker 5: They honestly don’t understand what we’re
making a big deal of. They just take it in their stride.
Speaker 3: I think that’s the thing. Because I do a lot of
work in the queer community and with trans-people and you name it, on the
spectrum, I’ve probably met somebody. So there’s something about just
approaching those conversations in a really honest way. Just like you would be
like, “I don’t know what kind of fish is this.” Like if you were buying it in a
shop, right? Just be really honest, “I don’t understand. Could you tell me?”
Speaker 7: And within the context of, you know, if you
were talking about what wine do you want, you shouldn’t go, “Let me just
interrupt to ask you what your identity is.”
Speaker 2: What’s underneath
your slacks or I can’t choose the wine until I know what’s happening
downstairs, you know what I mean now? Just do I want red wine? I don’t know.
You know? But doesn’t it completely depend whether we’re talking about the
children in the school. Whether we’re talking about kind of hicks in Alabama,
like it only happens if a child or an adult comes across somebody and goes, “So
what’s that story then?” and in innocence and respectful terms.
And it’s only the
extent to which we have blended kind of races and ethnicities in the country,
we’re all going to get to grips with the lingo over what kind of—like how do I
approach this conversation and then the normalization of it. And it just
strikes me that that might be something that the generation coming up behind us
might be more exposed to as a result, much more kind of comfortable.
Speaker 7: Woo-hoo! Cheers to that! On to the next one.
Speaker 3: Okay, so we’re going to take a brief break and
going to clear these plates and I’m going to get the next course.
