Question One:
How do people find deeper connection or fulfillment in their lives - something that isn't transitory?
Female 1: It’s going.
Male 1: We all just lose the ability to speak.
Female 2: As long as I don’t have to listen to my voice back on recording then I’m fine with you doing that.
Female 1: No, that’s fine.
Male 2: That’s what I was worried about as well
Female 3: I’m a bit spooked
about being photographed, but recordings ok.
Female 1: Ok, no, it’s
fine. Dig in. Yes, if anyone’s on a date tonight you might
want to go easy on the garlic bread, because it’s super garlicky. We’ve got
rocket watercress and tomato salad, got some antipasti, and this gnocchi with spinach,
and then the chocolate mousse for pudding.
Male 1: Wow.
Female 2: Amazing.
Female 1: Sorry. So that made
you go, you’re going to be a bit gung-ho about life basically.
Female 2: Yes, I thought to
see, I just happened to see it. I just
thought it seemed like a fun thing to do. I knew
of you we follow each other on twitter so I knew it wasn’t completely
Female 1: I wasn’t going to
rape and pillage you. Yes.
Female 2: I was standing at the
bus stop today and I called my husband and I was like, “Let me just let you
know where I’m going.”
Female 1: Just in case. The funny thing is people don’t really go to
stranger’s houses ever. That was kind of
one of the things. I just feel like the
world distrusts- we all distrust each other so much.
Male 1: There was that whole pop up restaurant
thing a while ago…
Female 1: Yes
Male 1: -four to five years ago?
Female 1: Yes, but that was
different in that there’s this economic guarantee that you pay someone with
your credit card and they can track you down.
Female 3: So theres an
incentive for them to
Female 1: Yes, where with this
it really could just be a weirdo murdering people.
Female 2: Yes so it didn’t feel
as big a risk
Female 1: What about you?
Female 3: I must have seen it
on Twitter as well. I was actually trying to think about that on the way over
here. How I saw it. Must have been on Twitter,
someone I follow locally must have retweeted one of your tweets. I don’t know
it just must have caught me in a moment of feeling like: it would be good to
meet new people, I kind of want to get to do more in the local area anyway, and
I just thought it sounded like a great idea really. It was sort of the
underlining reason.
Female 1: Where are you in the
local area?
Female 2: I live in Brixton
just on the other side of the park - where the new Sainsburies is. That used to
be the cockpit freight train near the Hootinany Pub.
Male 1: On the way to Tulse Hill
Female 2: Yes, I sort of live
behind that.
Female 1: Cool.
Female 3: I live in Kennington
by the way. On your Twitter it says ‘Kennington’
so again, I thought, that’s local.
Female 1: That’s local,
yes. That’s really interesting, because I’ve
got lots of people who seem to be kind of south London. Then there were lots of people in Glasgow or
you know really far away. So, I think there might be spinoff events that happen
once I figure out how it works in other places.
Alright, should we do the first question. Who wants to pick?
Female 2: Would you like to pick?
Male1: Okay.
Female 2: You were the first
guest.
Male1: How do you find deeper
meaning or fulfilment in your life? Is
that? Is it life?
Female 2: Yes.
Male1: In your life, something that
isn’t transitory.
Female 2: That’s mine Can I
give context? I don’t even know if I like it as a question anymore. Anyway, because probably what you were saying
about the news being negative, sometimes I like to think about the future too
much. You know, economics is dead,
everyone’s really busy and frantic, feels like were all rushing around doing
lots of stuff.
I
don’t know, it’s been something I’ve been thinking about recently. I guess
partly because of my personal situation in that I don’t have kids, I don’t have
a partner, and I think those are things that can sometimes make you feel more
anchored in life and tethered to something – tethered in a good way not a bad
way; well depending.
Either
those things or outside of those things, I’ve been thinking about the things
that sort of make you feel like you’re anchored to something more or have a bit
more of an overarching goal or purpose.
Rather than going to the dentist, going to the movies, you know whatever
you happen to be doing.
I
just had a navel gazing moment obviously.
Male 1: No
Female 3: It’s kind of interesting
because I’m a really big worrier. Like I
worry about global, on a massive scale and one of the things that I found, is
that in order to not just go a little bit mental, the thing that has to give my
life meaning - is the small things like going to the cinema or having... It’s
really, kind of, all those small incremental things and placing value in those.
I went to a convent school and I was raised by probably a lapsed Methodist and
a militant Atheist, so I don’t really have…
Female 2: Wow, that’s a bizarre
mix isn’t it?
Female 3: Yes, so I have loads
of religious habit. I know Matthews gospel by heart actually, but I don’t
really have any feeling. I always feel like a hypocrite when I meet religious
people; like I feel terrible. I don’t’ stick at things enough, like there’s
people who can locate their meaning in, I don’t know, sustainability. That’s
what they chase, their creed. That’s
what gives them purpose, but I don’t feel like I can do that. I don’t think I believe in anything enough. Actually little things really work for
me. I don’t know, I’m going to think
about it and come back to that.
Male 2: I was in that place where I don’t think anything
means very much. What I did is stop
working for a year, pretty much; just completely stopped. And read every day, then once that felt like
enough I was, started reading and then I went for walks every day. It was nearly a year; it was about ten
months. I read about the brain and how our brain works and philosophy, and why
the world is the way it is. Then after
that I was like, actually that’s what I need to be doing regularly is
considering my place in the world and the world’s place in the world in kind of
a larger every day way.
I
just signed up to do a degree. That was my answer, and now doing a degree in
modern liberal arts, and that for me is what gives me the anchor and the
meaning because it means I’m pulled away from myself discovering the great big
things of the world and the little things, which I can then take on for me and apply
to the work that I do. So then I got together with a group of people to develop
a new project – and then both those things in tandem really helped find that
meaning because it brings a group of people together who care about something,
and it’s that that gives me… and I try not to read news or watch the news once
a week because I can’t find the meaning in it. It’s certainly not as the way it’s
delivered to us; largely. That is my direct answer to that question.
Female 3: Yes, that’s a good
answer. I’ve got a few thoughts. They might be very interconnected, so I’ll
just say them. One thing, because of
what I was going through recently with the cancer; I don’t have ovaries anymore,
I had to go through menopause, I went to get some counseling, some therapy. I
was saying to her, I was recently, that I suddenly felt ok with the uncertainty
of life and the one thing I know, I’m not religious but the one thing I believe
in is that anything can happen.
There’s
only so much you have control of and things can go wrong in life, but I trust
now that I have so flexibility and some coping skills to be able to roll with
it and bend with it. She introduced me
to a concept which I hadn’t known of called negative capability which is Keats,
the poet Keats who came up with that.
It’s great if you look it up, it’s about how he was saying, basically
it’s about being able to live with uncertainty and how, as a poet he was very
charismatic in some way, he had this poetry and was able to express himself but
inside he felt very insecure and very shy. How actually those double back, that
negative traits were very useful for creativity, and that there was a lot that
came out of that negative stuff and he was able to live with that and live the
doubts and the insecurity.
He
thought that that was a coping mechanism. I thought that’s was, sort of,
interesting. The other thing I was thinking of, I do have a husband and
children. When my eldest was a bit
younger, it could be quite hard – you know it’s relentless, it not particularly
intellectually stimulating and you have lots of doubts as a mother. One thing, again it was an article that
someone had told me about was in the Huff Post, but it really kind of made
sense with me. It was about
appreciating, what you call the, kairos moments; it’s a Greek word I’m not sure
if I’m pronouncing it perfectly.
Female 1: Doesn’t Kairos mean,
like, weather
Female 3: I’m not sure…
Female 1: I’m interrupting you,
sorry. Ignore me.
Female 3: It’s ok, it’s ok, but
it was all about noticing the little moments.
Instead of saying, you know, I should be grateful for all I’ve got; it
was about actually noticing the little moments.
The little moments when your child tells you they love you. When you feel really connected and you’re in
the moment and noticing those. That’s something that I found really helpful and
wonderful sort of like what you were saying, I’ve noticed the little moments
when I feel really, kind of connected to something. Enjoying a film or
something and all just when I feel at peace; I’m with it and my mind’s not
wandering.
Female 2: That all make sense
and actually, I guess it does also link to why I came here today as well
because it’s easy noticing the moments and being in that moment. To not be in the moment, so you’re doing all
your things but not actually properly there because of multitasking, phones,
and internet.
Female 1:
…and Twitter.
Female 2: Exactly, that kind of
thing. Probably connecting more with the moment is important and I think that
is part of what attracted me to your lunch is sort of connecting with other
people and reflecting.
Female 1:
Yes, I think one of the things – with the little things, one of the things is
what sort of this lunch is about. The way to find a broader collective meaning
actually in a way to kind of all be in something together.
Male 2:
Yes
Female 1:
I haven’t really thought about how to articulate this yet. I find meaning, in
order to function, I find meaning in the little things, but then there are
times where you sit and there’s this wonderful little thing and you think,
“yes, this is it” and then actually it can’t be, it cannot be the meaning of
life is eating some really nice chocolates on a rainy Sunday, that can’t be it.
Female 2:
Feels like it is sometimes though isn’t it?
Female 1: I guess, I ponder about the tension of that.
Male 2:
The things that we find that do give us meaning are the things that aren’t
actually expected. You make all these
big giant plans about how you’re going to live your life; you’ve got your five,
ten, fifty year plan. You’re going to
get married; you’re going to have two point four kids, you’re going to retire,
or whatever it may be. Actually, it’s too big almost to get a real sense of
pleasure from other than potentially later on you look back on it, and it’s
like these little things that come along during the process, during the journey
that you have where you go, “oh, yes that’s really great”. Like this, like a sunny day where you sit
outside reading the paper. Like last
weekend I had a great time on Sunday morning, because it was the first sunny
day and I sat outside and read the paper.
Just small little things like that that crop up along the way.
Female 1:
Is there a difference though; between pleasure, happiness, and meaning? In a way we’ve all kind of been like, “this
is the thing that makes me happy”. The
things that make me happy are not necessarily the things that I think are
worthwhile. I feel like I should
probably give up everything that I do and go and work for an NGO and really change
the world or start a charity like, that’s what I should do to have meaning,
because I am totally capable of changing the world if I do that. There is an essential selfish core to me I
sacrifice meaning for happiness.
Female 2:
I work for an NGO and I don’t feel like I’m changing the world.
Male 1:
It’s an interesting one because that idea of meaning is often found through
difficulty. It’s not necessarily about
finding happiness or finding ways that are often found through that difficulty,
but you can engineer that difficulty in a way that can be very practical, you
can set up an idea of I’m going to do this project and go knowing it’s going to
be very difficult or nearly impossible, but I think it’s largely about bringing
a group of people together. I think that
is where most of us find out meaning is in relation to another human being or a
group of human beings and I don’t necessarily think it has to be on the large
scale of working for an NGO and changing the world.
It’s
that old school saying of, if you look after your own back garden you’ll find
that the neighbor starts looking after their own back garden and then all of a
sudden you’ve changed the street. It’s
an interesting idea of how you can change the world. Maybe it’s just by growing too many tomatoes
and giving the extra tomatoes away. Then
more people start growing their own food.
It’s that whole, being the change, idea, but I don’t know if that gives
you meaning. That’s the difficulty it
matters on who you are at that time.
Something that could be really meaningful to me might not mean anything
to anybody else.
Male 2:
Do youthink a lot of people just don’t realize how much of an impact they have
on other people.
Female 2:
Yes.
Male 2:
Like a positive impact.
Female 3: And
a negative.
Female 1: We
all know some of those
Female 3:
Yes, which actually brings in nicely to what I was going to say which for me is
I guess for me is to do things that bring me at peace. I feel good about myself for doing or
negatively about and sort of happiness or happiness to someone else. I guess just doing things out of love rather
than fear.
Female 1:
I think a lot about kindness. That’s where my happiness and meaning
coincide.
Female 3:
Yes, kindness.
I
think for me, that’s what it is. It’s
living in a way that I feel that I can be proud of or at least ok with. Teaching my children good values and
connecting with intimacy, because intimacy can be difficult.
Yes,
I think that’s kind of my meaning.
Male 1:
I think there is something about facilitated space.
Female 1:
Yes.
Male 1:
A lot of people find which is why I went to do this degree, because it’s a
facilitated space. The course I’m doing is specifically looking at the big
questions of life, who are we and why. There’s
that element, if you think about what religion has done, if you forget about
all the negative stuff, because we know that, but if you think about what
religion has done for long periods of time its facilitated space.
Female 1:
a place for us all to get together and figure shit out.
Male 1:
Yes, exactly people have gathered. There
is a unity in what they are gathering for, but I think in a secular society
those spaces are starting to be filled but we’re perhaps responding to the fact
that they haven’t been filled yet; enough.
Especially as we grow up as adults, now we’ve got facilitated space of
school, then we got to college or a university, and work for a little bit of
time becomes a facilitated space where you know everybody and there’s nothing
new. Whereas in an idea of religion
often coming to meet people in a space that does not have any other purpose than
you’re gathering there. Depending on the
religion it can be quite hardcore, strict, or whatever. Just an idea that you’re all there…
Female 2:
Looking for meaning.
Male 1:
Looking for meaning.
Female 3:
Reflecting.
Male 1:
I think if we had more of those facilitated spaces that weren’t necessarily
about a deity or religion, that that would be really interesting.
Female 3:
There’s one that’s been going, I think, for a year and a bit now. The Sunday, the Sunday meeting or, I can’t
remember what it’s called…
Male 1:
Sunday sermons.
Female 3:
Yes, Sunday sermons and its nonreligious people coming together on a
Sunday. Someone delivers a talk about
the world around us and the people. It
operates, I guess, in the same premise as a church and that people coming
together you know being part of a community and talking about life, but without
the religious aspect. I haven’t been to
any but I had heard about it and read about it.
Male1:
Ruby Wax did one on mental health which was fascinating.
Female 2:
Did she?
Male 1:
Yes she did 50 minutes.
Female 1:
I heard about it, yes.
Male 1:
On mental health, because she tells people that she lost the plot. It was the idea of this Sunday sermon and it
was her talking about her ideas of experiencing mental health. I definitely think there is something in that
big public facilitated space as well. You’re pulled outside of your own comfort
zones, I think, and you have to…
Female 1:
You have to, because you’re kind of resisting between pushing yourself being
yourself and aligning with others. That makes you kind of assess where you’re
positioning yourself morally, globally, financially, whatever; like churches
use to do.
Male 1:
Yes, exactly.
Female 3: The
thing about the church as well is that you get, which is what you’re trying to
do here, is you get people who are very different and you might live very near
each other but you won’t necessarily support each other.
Female 1:
That was also the thing, I meet a lot of people every week; a lot of strangers.
There’re all under the same umbrella pretty much and before I got this job I
did temping and I met loads of different people, other different kinds of
people, from different I don’t know clubs or whatever. One of the things I find some the things I
took from those clubs aren’t so welcome in this club. Things I know about or think about, I’m sort
of interested in how we sort of club ourselves together. If you’re defining meaning based on your
context then meaning changes entirely from person to person and it would be. I
sort of feel like, surely there must be, this shared meaning; a universal
meaning.
Female 2:
We like to belong to tribes though don’t we?
When you were talking about clubbing I sort of felt like we do. I feel
like half the tribe. Sorry.
Male 1: That’s
the great question..
Female 1:
is there a universal meaning…
Male1:
Is there a universal meaning? Is there universality between I and we? What is that tension between I believe in
this and we believe in that?
(The
buzzer sounds)
(Laughter)
Female 1:
That feels like a really pnice place to end that section actually
Female 2:
Cos we cant answer that can we?
Male 1:
Philosphers have been trying to answer that for two and a half thousand years!
Male 2:
Well, see we could have fixed it if only we’d had another two minutes!
Female 1:
Okay, well we’ll do second course, can you clear these plates? Please really keep your knives and forks
because when we bought them he wouldn’t let me buy two sets because he said
we’d only ever need six. So we don’t
have enough to do…
Male 1: I’m a
big fan of that.
Female 1:
He’s not so much into it in that every dinner party we’ve had, since we met
I’ve told that story.
Male 2:
It gives a wonderful opportunity to tell a great story and have people recycle
and reuse.
Female 2:
Exactly.
Male 1: Exactly.
Female 3:
It’s one of the things that one day that they’ll name in the divorce that we
keep going on about these things.
Male 1:
Just on the changeover. I think there’s no harm in just taking some really
practical steps. I’m going to do this
today, I’m going to do this on Wednesday, I’m going to do… there’s no harm in
that. I was very purposeful about
leaving my job, you know and it wasn’t like I was rich. I went on the dole and
I signed on, and it was a very conscious choice of going, this thing of I and we. I have to start with the “I”. What am I about if I’m not in relation to
these other things? I was largely defined by my work and my job, but who am I
if I don’t have that, who am I if don’t have a partner, if I don’t have
children, or if I don’t have a house? Who am I?
Female 1:
or a job…?
Male 1:
Yes, of if I don’t have a job? It was me being really conscious going for the next
nine months, who are you? Then it was only once that I had some sort of
uncertain sense of that, there was no certainty in it what so ever, but an
uncertain sense of what the uncertainties were. The other stuff started to
really matter and I was really deliberate about the choices I then made, but it
did just start with two months of just reading books, because I wanted to
demand nothing other of myself than just existing, but who are you if you just
exist and just don’t do anything? That was quite interesting for me in terms of
that finding meaning in questions. Kant,
Manual Kant's a philosopher, he talks about this idea of do we value people for
what they achieve or do we value people because they exist? That’s quite an
interesting idea; do we value people just because they exist? Do we value life
for life’s sake? If we don’t, then when do we value…
Female 1:
Theoretically we do, right?
Male 1: Do
we?
Male 2:
The death penalty?
Female 1:
Well that’s true, but also what about right to life?
Male 1:
Yes, abortion rights and all.
We
went deep didn’t we?
Female 3:
I heard someone had something frivolous?
Female 2:
What is your favorite shoe shop?
Female 1:
Actually the slightly more frivolous question was from the lady that’s sick and
couldn’t come
Please
serve yourselves. There is a whole other one.
Female 1:
Do you want to pick, would you like to pick the next question?
[End]
Read the transcript of the next question here.
[End]
Read the transcript of the next question here.
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